On Monday, Family Research Council President Tony Perkins sat down with Dr. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, to discuss the fallout of President Trump’s sudden “flexibility” on taxpayer-funded abortion. How serious is the threat, and what would it mean for the Republican Party? Read what the two longtime leaders had to say on “Washington Watch.”
TONY PERKINS: January is Sanctity of Human Life Month, and next week, tens of thousands will once again converge on Washington, D.C. for the annual March for Life. [While] the Supreme Court’s infamous Roe v. Wade decision was relegated to the dustbin of history three and a half years ago, the attack on life continues. Joining me now to discuss this is Dr. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and host of “The Briefing.” He’s also editor of World Opinions and author of several books, including the most recent, “Prophet, Priest, & King: The Three Offices of Christ.” Dr. Mohler, welcome back to “Washington Watch” and happy New Year.
ALBERT MOHLER: Happy New Year to you, Tony, and as always, good to be with you.
PERKINS: Well, it’s great to hear your voice. Let’s talk about this. You and I have been around for a while, and so we’ve seen how the battle for life, the sanctity of life, has evolved over the years. How would you summarize where we are now and compare it to where we’ve been in the past when we started on this march to defend life 48 years ago when most of the Baptists joined the effort? Thank God for the Catholics who were there first. We’ve seen progress, but where are we today?
MOHLER: Well, I appreciate the fact that you go back to the battle where it really started in terms of modern American history and the Roe v. Wade decision of 1973. It caught us by surprise. And as you well know, it caught evangelicals in a very awkward position. As a matter of fact, many evangelicals had not thought the issue through, so they had to think fast. And so, in the period from 1973 until 1980, you’ve got a consolidating pro-life understanding. And at the same time, the Republican Party becomes very well identified with the pro-life cause. Ronald Reagan even [wrote] a book about it. You had the two parties go in two different directions. And the issue of life is such a clear distinction.
… One of the things that happened is you had Congressman Henry Hyde, along with others, but he took the lead in coming up with a measure that, at the very least, would prevent American taxpayers from paying for abortion with taxpayer money. It was really initiated in 1976, had to go through several political battles, but by 1980, it was pretty much in shape. And it passed with bipartisan support, because even when you had a pro-abortion party — and the Democrats became avidly more pro-abortion every cycle — the fact is that even Joe Biden, until a political gun was put to his head in terms of gaining the nomination for the 2000 race, even Joe Biden had voted for the Hyde Amendment every single time it had come up. And so, we’re now in a position in which the Democrats are radically more [pro-]abortion than ever. And you’re exactly right to point to President Trump’s comment when he said that Republicans have to be “flexible” on this issue. You know, we can be flexible on many things. But on this issue, I’m sorry, there’s no flexibility.
PERKINS: What’s interesting about this, as you pointed out, Henry Hyde, who I had the privilege of knowing before he passed away, [is responsible for] the only common ground on this issue that was carved out. It was like an area where people could meet and say, ‘All right, I disagree with you over this issue, but I agree that we shouldn’t force people to participate in it.’ And that was the standard. This year marks 50 years. Now, we did see Hillary Clinton clamoring back when she was running for president that we need to get rid of the Hyde Amendment. And then, as you pointed out, Biden [changed] his position on it. But the Republicans had etched this into cement, into their party platform — until that platform was ripped up in this last go around. I mean, this is shocking. And I think in part, the president just doesn’t understand the history of this and [what a] hard-fought battle this has been.
MOHLER: Yeah. When you see the president’s comments, “You’re going to have to be flexible on this,” I think it underscores again that sometimes the president of the United States just does not understand … the importance of principle in the pro-life defense. So much of politics is just purely transactional. And if we’re talking about marginal tax rates or zoning laws, [or] any number of things, there can be flexibility. But when it comes to the difference between life and death, we’ve got no ground to be flexible. My hope is that the president made that comment in a way that was basically about [the time-sensitive deadline]. But time is running out, and we have no flexibility on this issue. And Tony, I’m going to put myself on the line here — and I think you’ll join with me — [that] if the Republican Party, if the Trump administration, ever backs off of Hyde, then Republicans are going to lose pro-life credibility for a generation and deserve to do so. This can’t happen.
PERKINS: Well, I would say, Dr. Mohler, that they will become a minority party because this is … the issue that brought me off the streets as a police officer into the political arena. And there are many, many — in fact, my building is filled with men and women who work here, who came to Washington because of this issue — because of the sanctity of human life. And I think when you look at the ranks of Republican voters, they’re aligned with the party because the party is aligned with their values.
MOHLER: You know, I believe you and I were in a meeting together about 20 years ago when there was some wavering. There was some signaling coming from some Republicans. And several of us made the statement, “Look, if the Democratic Party is more pro-life than the Republican Party, you’re looking at future Democrats.” Now, there’s actually no danger of that happening. But the point is, the Republican Party is not my first commitment. My first commitment is to the sanctity of human life. If the Republican Party stands for that, I’m going to stand with the Republican Party, and frankly, unreservedly and rather unbrokenly, with a lot of energy. But the moment pro-life Christians understand that the Republican Party is backing off this issue, you’re going to discover an awful lot of missing bumper stickers and an awful lot of missing voters by the millions.
PERKINS: Here’s the good news. … I think, as you pointed out, [the president] doesn’t clearly understand this. I mean, he’s new to the ranks of politics. He doesn’t understand how this issue has been an issue that pro-lifers coalesced with the Republican Party. You talked about Ronald Reagan picking it up. And in fact, it’s been in the party platform, since I think maybe 1980. … This has been the position. I can tell you from my conversations with those who were in the room when he said that [were in] shock. I do not believe that there is any movement by the rank-and-file Republican elected leaders to move away from this issue. Although I would say this, it’s always important when those types of things are said that the pro-life community, the evangelical community, the Catholic community responds and says, “All right, you may have misspoken, but I want you to hear me very clearly. That is a red line for us.”
MOHLER: It’s one of the reasons I appreciate what you’re doing right now. You’re raising this issue, and that, of course, is a way of speaking to our own folks. But it’s also a way of signaling to the White House. President Trump became famous as a businessman [for] his book, “The Art of the Deal.” And you know what? He understands how to make a deal. He also has to understand a deal-breaker, and we have to make very clear that this is a deal-breaker — that the affection that conservative pro-lifers have for the Trump administration is actually dependent upon his holding the line on the Hyde Amendment and, frankly, on unrelated pro-life issues. And here’s the thing. You know, I think since his inauguration to a second term, the president has actually taken some incredibly bold and important action. He needs to hold by these very actions he’s taken. He’s actually taken some very constructive actions related to the Hyde Amendment and to federal funding issues related to abortion. Mr. President, stay on track.
PERKINS: So let me ask you an important question, Dr. Mohler, because when we talk about this and our listeners and viewers are saying, “Well, how can you say this about what the president said when you say that he does good things and you support him? How can you say that he does things that are bad?” I mean, I think we have to, number one, go back to what you said about our allegiance is not to a party or to a politician. It is to the Kingdom of God and to His word. We can applaud and encourage those who do the right thing. At the same time, when they make a mistake, we need to tell them this is unacceptable, because the standard by which we operate is transcendent truth, the word of God. And that doesn’t change, no matter what party you’re in.
MOHLER: Tony, I’ll age myself. I’ll simply say that in the battles we had in the ’80s, some of those battles were inside the Reagan administration. Sometimes it meant evangelicals holding the Reagan administration’s feet to the fire on this. And this is the way politics works. And you know it as well as anyone on planet Earth. And we just need our folks to understand that politics means eternal vigilance on the issues that are unshakable and non-negotiable, and this is one of them.
PERKINS: It is the church walking in and understanding its prophetic role in society. When I say prophetic, that is proclaiming the word of God and its truth, whether it is received or not, whether it’s welcomed or not. That’s our role. We’re to be the moral conscience. … I mean, that’s why we have separation of church and state. We want the two separate, so that we can speak [the truth into it] and not be influenced by its policies.
MOHLER: You know, I like the way you put that. Let me put it this way. I think we should fear a future of conservatism in which conservatives and the conservative base are our friends and allies. If they only speak the truth to the other side, we’re in big trouble. We’re only consistent if we speak the truth to our side and to our tribe and make it stick. If we are about principle, which we are, then we’ve got to live by that principle. And you know what? We’ve got to say out loud where the lines are. And I’m so thankful for you drawing a clear line here and [at] FRC, because this is a very clear line. And you know what? It’s also important [that] we just point to the history. Republicans have been united on this since 1976. We have had amazing electoral victories and political victories since 1976. I believe that Republican consensus on this and commitment is one of the reasons why Republicans have been successful. I think [abandoning] Hyde is not only, first of all, just morally abhorrent. Secondly, it’s politically disastrous.
PERKINS: We just have about a minute left, Dr. Mohler. … We’ll have to continue the conversation elsewhere. We’re talking about Hyde. But the abortion drug, which federal policy is allowing it to be mailed into states, is another issue that we have to address.
MOHLER: That’s right. And, you know, I think there’s some progress in terms of people inside the administration speaking very clearly to this. But I think this is going to end up in the courts, and we really need to get the ball rolling on this. And so, I think one of the things you’re doing effectively is we just need to tell Americans, “Look, all the victory that came with the Dobbs decision in 2022 is being subverted and undone through uncontrolled [mailings], postal deliveries of the abortion pill.” And what a sad [and] tragic irony that we would win at the Supreme Court and lose at the mailbox. This has to be stopped.
PERKINS: I mean, prior to the overturn of Roe, 933,000 abortions per year. After the overturn of Roe, it’s jumped to 1.1 million. Why? Because of the abortion pill. The abortion pill has made it easy. And, you know, you and I have been in this battle for a long time, and to think that it comes down to a pill. The culture of death in a pill. Americans need to be infuriated and outraged about this.
