Does the ‘Deep State’ Exist?

During his 2024 presidential campaign, Republican nominee Donald Trump has repeatedly said that he will dismantle the “Deep State” if elected president. Mainstream media outlets have consistently dismissed the existence of a Deep State within the U.S. government as a conspiracy theory. A recent episode of The Washington Stand’s “Outstanding” podcast explored the questions surrounding whether or not there is in fact a Deep State and what the proper Christian response to the issue should be.

Eric Teetsel, who formerly served as chief of staff for Senator Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), managed relationships at The Heritage Foundation, and will soon be starting a new position as executive vice president at the Center for Renewing America, joined host Joseph Backholm, a senior fellow at Family Research Council, for the discussion.

“The Russia collusion hoax would be a perfect example of the Deep State at work,” he argued at the outset. “… The Hillary Clinton campaign hired a contractor to develop what came to be known as the Steele dossier, and it alleges that Donald Trump was basically an agent of the Russian government sent to take down Hillary Clinton and that they were working together in the 2016 election cycle in order to win. … Then you have the FBI, which somehow got its mitts on the Steele dossier and launched an investigation into a candidate for president of the United States, based on the flimsiest accusations in this dossier that was paid for by that person’s political opponent.”

“Now it gets worse,” Teetsel continued. “The FBI decides that they need to electronically surveil Donald Trump and his campaign in order to ensure that he’s not, in fact, an agent of the Russian government. Well, in order to do that … the FBI goes to the FISA court, which is a secret court whose judges do not go through any kind of a [confirmation] process. They are picked by the chief justice of the Supreme Court. The FBI goes to them and they say, ‘Hey, we’d like a warrant on this person.’ All of these proceedings happen in private. The person who is prospectively being surveilled does not have representation there, they don’t have an attorney to argue on their behalf. So it’s a one-sided secret court where the FBI presents their evidence and the court determines whether or not they should get a warrant in order to surveil an American citizen.”

“Between 1979 and 2017, so almost 40 years, the FBI made 41,222 warrant requests of the FISA court,” Teetsel explained. “There were 85 denials. … If I was generous to the court here, and I included up to 2017, between 2016 and 2017, 68 of those 85 denials happened. So prior to 2017 in that 35-year period, they only denied 17 of the 40,000 requests. I don’t know, that sounds kind of Deep State-y to me.”

Backholm provided another example through the controversy surrounding former Trump foreign policy advisor Carter Page.

“There’s another character in that drama named Carter Page who was an American businessman who was working in Russia at the time. And because of his business connections there, there were people who suspected he was actually working for the CIA. The CIA reached out to this guy and said, ‘Hey, can you help us help the United States? Because you have some connections there.’ … And he was like, ‘Great, let’s do it.’ And people who did not know that he was working for the U.S. government saw this Carter Page guy over there because he had connections to Trump, and they were saying, ‘Oh, he’s clearly the connection between Trump and the Russian government, so that’s proof he’s the missing link.’ … And so those people actually sent an email over to the CIA and said, ‘Hey, this Carter Page guy, is he working for you?’ And they said, ‘Yes, he’s working for us.’ And so they took that email and they edited it so it didn’t say, ‘Yes, he’s working for us’ and [instead] said, ‘No, he’s not working for us.’ And then they submitted that email to the FISA court as evidence that they need to surveil.”

Teetsel contended that it’s because of examples like these that Trump’s message of dismantling the Deep State resonates with many American voters.

“I think it’s why Donald Trump occupies the space in American culture that he does, which is when he talks about this, and when evidence like the story that you and I just told is known, it proves that the Deep State is real. And that resonates with average, everyday Americans who may never have been the subject of an FBI investigation at the FISA court, but who have a deep sense that their government is not working for them in some way, in some small way. And so they get it. They believe it in their gut, because, of course, that’s how things work. … That’s why Donald Trump was elected president of the United States. Because people do intuit that there’s a thing called the Deep State, and that it’s a violation of everything that our country is supposed to be.”

As Backholm went on to assert, a vast bureaucratic government that is unaccountable to the electorate is not a reflection of what the Founders intended.

“Christians understand human nature, and the reason we love our system of government and the separation of powers that it tried to create with the executive, judicial, and legislative branch is the wisdom of our Founders and their belief in the doctrine of sin — that if any person gets too much power, they will misuse it. So we have to make sure no person gets too much power. And what we have now with these people in agencies who are in there for a career and an administration moves through in four or eight years is the bureaucracy is forever and the executive branch is temporary.”

Teetsel concurred, but also noted that the president’s ability to appoint powerful positions within the government should be a serious consideration when voting.

“[E]ach president has the power to appoint 4,000 people to positions of extraordinary power and influence within the federal government. Only about 1,200 of those require a Senate confirmation. These are the people who, on the day to day, have the choice of whether to advance the interests of the administration and the people that elected it or their own. … So we should certainly consider that when we’re making decisions about things like voting. … But then also pray, pray that the person who is elected would make wise choices and that the people who are selected for those jobs would serve for the right reasons.”

Teetsel further expanded on the origin and the administrative stated its immense scope.

“This is straight out of Woodrow Wilson who invented it. He was a political scientist and actually quite an academic before getting involved in politics. And what he did was invent the administrative state and say, ‘We’ve got to get politics out of this. We just need technicians who are really smart experts in their field. … And because they’re such good, virtuous people, they’re not going to get bogged down in the politics of this. They’re just going to do what is right.’ And now … there are two million federal bureaucrats these days. That doesn’t include another 20 million contractors who work with the federal government. It doesn’t include any of the NGOs or nonprofit organizations who exist almost solely on government grants, and, of course, the corporate interests that work hand in hand with government to do regulation. So … this apparatus and its tentacles impact literally every aspect of your life.”

Teetsel went on to urge Christians to not be afraid of fulfilling a calling to work for the government.

“Should more Christians work in government? Yeah, if that’s what you’re called to do. What you certainly shouldn’t do is shirk it like Jonah. If this is what you’re meant to do, do it, and do it faithfully. Not everyone is meant to do it. I recognize that that’s also very important and true. We have different realms of responsibility. … Whatever your vocation is, though, take it seriously and courageously.”

Backholm agreed, noting that Christian principles should guide government workers.

“I want people with a Christian worldview in those jobs. Now, I probably also think we don’t need all of those jobs. … I’m hearing this rumor that maybe Elon [Musk] will head some task force and just fire people, even indiscriminately, and I probably would support that. But [some] jobs remain because there is a government that needs to exist and it needs to do things to serve the public, and I want those people understanding their own deficiencies and trying to be self-regulated … rather than leaning into [the] pursuit of what I think are good ends is justified, which is kind of the world that we live in now.”

Teetsel concluded by emphasizing that government work does not necessarily require specialized skills, but should instead rely on common sense.

“[When] I came onto the Hill, I had never worked on the Hill before. I basically started in a fairly senior role, and here’s what I learned: Literally anyone can do these jobs. I mean, if I could do it, you could do it. If you can read, you can do these jobs. Take the time to read, understand the thing, apply basic rational logic and a servant heart to it, and you’ll be great. Are there a couple exceptions? Yeah. If you’re going to be in charge of figuring out what to do with the nuclear waste, maybe it’s good if you’re an engineer, but that’s such a small percentage of this. The rest of it is just use the brain that God gave you and you’ll be fine.”